Episode 100: The Ronnie Gardiner Method: Unlocking Brain Potential Through Rhythm and Movement – Carolyn Haney

LD Expert Podcast with Jill Stowell
The Ronnie Gardiner Method:
Unlocking Brain Potential Through Rhythm and Movement
Carolyn Haney

 

Jill Stowell: A few years ago, a colleague invited me to the first ever US training for the Ronnie Gardiner Method, or RGM. We were already doing very successful and comprehensive cognitive learning therapies at our centers, and it was an incredibly busy time of year for me, so I didn't feel like I could take a week off to do another training. But my friend, Maria Bagby from Therapeutic Learning Center in San Diego, was relentless. She said, “This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. You have to do this.”

 

So, I did, and she was right. It was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. At the age of 90, almost 91, Ronnie Gardiner flew from Stockholm, Sweden to San Diego, California to lead us in a rigorous four-day training. We, the participants, were all exhausted, but he was vibrant and passionate about this truly transformational program he had created.

 

RGM uses rhythm, music, and movement to stimulate mobility, reading, speech, self-esteem, body image, balance, memory, motor skills, concentration, social skills, and more. It's also fun and joyful while challenging so many different parts of the brain.

 

Today, we're going to take a closer look at the Ronnie Gardiner Method, hear the story of how it was created, and talk about why rhythm, music, and movement seem to be such powerful tools for the brain.

 

We'll talk about who this is helpful for and share some stories of the people whose lives have been touched by it. Welcome to the LD Expert Podcast, your place for answers and solutions for dyslexia, learning, and attention challenges.

 

I'm your host, Jill Stowell, Founder and Executive Director of Stowell Learning Centers and author of “Take the Stone Out of the Shoe”.

 

My guest today is my friend and colleague, Carolyn Haney, Founder of Duluth Core Learning and the US practitioner trainer for the Ronnie Gardiner Method. Carolyn brings years of experience working with children and adults, focusing on the powerful intersection of movement, memory, and brain function. Her work draws on the principles of neuroplasticity to support cognitive processing, coordination, focus, and lifelong learning.

 

Welcome, Carolyn.

 

Carolyn Haney: Hi, Jill. Thanks for having me on.

 

Jill Stowell: Oh, it's so great to have you. I can't wait for this conversation.

 

Carolyn Haney: Yes, it's always fun to talk.

 

Jill Stowell: Yep. So, before we talk about RGM, I would love to start with your story, how you got into this field of cognitive training and a little bit about Duluth Core Learning.

 

Carolyn Haney: It's one of those stories that I think often we hear from people that are doing the things that we're doing that are a little bit cutting-edge and that it was very unexpected. I was a school counselor and in the educational system for about 20 years. And I thought that I had it all figured out and I knew what I was doing and I loved what I was doing until our son started to struggle, which in the end led me to you and trying to find some answers, wanting to understand who he was, what was getting in the way of his learning and how I could make learning enjoyable and easier.

 

And through that, meeting you, finding some answers and getting some training, then working with my son and having great success and having him move forward. And that led to the creation of Duluth Core Learning. So, I do have a clinic, Duluth Core Learning, which is similar to Stowell Learning in a lot of the concepts and underlying skills, cognitive areas that we work on, working with kids as well as adults, all the different ages and a variety of different issues. And so, we get a variety of clients that come to us, but the overall idea is often they're frustrated and they want to do more.

 

They know they can do more and they're looking for answers and we help them find the answer as well as strengthen whatever's getting in the way as well as remove barriers.

 

Jill Stowell: And some amazing things have been happening there at Duluth Core Learning for – what is it now? Ten?

 

Carolyn Haney: I think it's 13 years.

 

Jill Stowell: Thirteen years.

 

Carolyn Haney: Yeah.

 

Jill Stowell: Wow.

 

Carolyn Haney: Yeah.

 

Jill Stowell: Amazing. Well, back in 2023, we both ended up attending the Ronnie Gardiner Method training in San Diego, the first US training and nobody really knew what this method was all about. What did you expect going in and what did you love about it? Because I could tell you really loved it.

 

Carolyn Haney: I absolutely loved it and it resonated with me in so many different ways. Not only did I discover that it covers all of the different underlying cognitive skills that we work on with attention, memory, processing, balance, movement, but it also – I had no idea what I was getting into. I was similar to you in that story. I think we both had a lot of faith in Maria and in her experience because she had experienced it a little bit.

 

And so, what I really knew about it was that there was music, there was movement, and there was this fantastic man named Ronnie Gardiner who we all just needed to meet. And that's what I went on and went to the training and just discovered something that I truly think is magical.

 

Jill Stowell: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I remember that the second day of the training, Ronnie went around and asked everybody what they thought about it. I honestly had gone feeling a little underdressed because I was just tired and I had a lot going on. And I was just blown away, as you said, by all the different skills that are being developed in all the different brain areas that are operating at the same time in RGM. So, it was pretty incredible from the get go.

 

Before we get too far into this, I want to talk a little bit about Ronnie because he has a remarkable story and he is very inspiring. Ronnie is a successful jazz drummer. He played with a lot of the greats way back, Dizzy Gillespie and Gerry Mulligan and Benny Carter. And he told me that he started drumming when he was three. And at the age of 93 now, he is still playing in his own jazz band and is quite in demand to play with other musicians.

 

Ronnie left the US in the 1960s. He was a musician on tour and our country wasn't particularly friendly to black musicians at that time. And so, he has been in Sweden for the last 60 years and he is quite a national treasure there, actually. Back in 1980, Ronnie experienced a horrific personal tragedy and it was one of those real pivotal moments in his life and he decided that he wanted to use his talents to help other people.

 

In fact, he has said the day he wanted to die was the day RGM was born. So, he began studying neuroscience and the impact of music on the brain and over the next 13 years then developed the Ronnie Gardiner Method. Ronnie is dyslexic and RGM has been used to help children with dyslexia and learning disabilities and attention challenges.

 

It has been widely used over the last 30 years in Scandinavia, the UK and Europe, in healthcare and rehabilitation services for stroke and brain injury and Parkinson's and just for senior adults who want to take care of their brain and live and age well. So, it's an amazing tool. Is there anything Carolyn that I left out there that you would like to add to Ronnie's story?

 

I think one of the most amazing things about Ronnie is that he did create the method to try and heal other people, while at the same time knowing the magic of music and how music can create so much joy and incorporates into your very being so that it's shared. It's something you share. It's the community and really by developing the method, not only did he heal himself and heal others, but he created a community and it does. That's what I see happen whenever I use the method and run my classes is that it just spreads and people absorb that joy and energy and you can't help but feel it because of that power of music. And I don't think he really knew at the time exactly how powerful it was going to be. He just knew that music helped him, healed him in so many ways and that's what he was aiming for.

 

Jill Stowell: Yeah, I totally feel that way too, that it creates such a community. So, you teach RGM classes and you train people who want to be RGM practitioners, people who want to offer it in their school or their practice. Can you give our listeners a picture of what an RGM class is like?

 

Carolyn Haney: The key thing that I always tell everybody is I say that it's like learning three languages. You have a visual component, you have an auditory component, you have a motor movement component, and so it's important, I think, for people to understand that because they look at the method and they look at how the class is structured and it looks easy and they don't understand why it is so challenging and why it's difficult for them to coordinate the different movements and put everything in place.

 

But I guess the key thing I think and that I love so much about the method, and I do use it one-on-one, I use it one-on-one as well as in groups, but I think the key piece of using it in groups is that you watch that community evolve because everybody is synchronized. You're all working in rhythm and you're working with a variety of music that fits the population, the kind of music that they enjoy, that particular group, and you're working on whatever skills they want to. It might be motor and balance and coordination or it could be memory.

 

It could be attention is a big piece of it, but I've seen it work with so many different populations and so it's watching that community evolve and they start to rely on each other and we laugh a lot. There's a lot of laughter and you watch how they even have to structure their movements so that you're not bumping into the people around you as well as making sure you're all on beat with that and it's looking to each other to really create one whole. So, it's one of my favorite things every single day, every day that I'm in a class. It's energizing while it's tiring.

 

At the same time, it's challenging for the brain and the body. I just had a 16-year-old that come to a class and he's a big athlete and he's a big, strong, healthy kid and he was amazed. He said, “I can feel my brain working and how difficult it was,” and I guess I just found out today he actually went home and took a nap afterwards, as did his mother. It's surprising, I think, how challenging it really can be but the overall aspect is it is a lot of fun and it takes a lot of brain power and motor planning in order to execute the different movements and it can work in lots of different ways.

 

Jill Stowell: Yeah, it really can. When you were talking about, well, first of all, him going home and taking a nap. At my class, my adult class this week, we had some new people come in and I said, “Your brains are going to be tired so give yourself some grace when you leave because it is.” It's so much fun that you don't realize how hard your brain is working sometimes but I do want to say to our listeners, if you want to try this out, we'll put a link to a demo video in the show notes so that you can just get kind of a feel for what we're talking about here.

 

One of the other things you said that I really love is that people have to be aware of other people around them and they have to kind of get in sync with each other and I think in our society today, with our devices and so much access to everything on our phones, it's pretty easy to pull in and become isolated and unaware and so that awareness of others and space and movement and then the synchronizing, just getting in sync with other people is amazing.

 

Carolyn Haney: It is.

 

Jill Stowell: Yeah.

 

Carolyn Haney: I don't know if you remember Ronnie talking about – he said, you'll be surprised at how much difficulty people have with their right and their left and knowing their right and their left and I walked away thinking, well, I can't imagine that because we've known our right and our left since we were little and we do have people that come to our clinics that have a hard time with that and we have people in our world that do, but I didn't realize how important that would really be.

 

That is one of the primary challenges and factors that I see come out in my classes and that most amazes people where they say, “I feel tangled.” It's, I can't tell my right from my left and I don't know what's going on. I've always known my right and my left and we know working in our clinics, we know that it's one thing to learn your right and your left and to maybe make the L with your left hand when you're first beginning and all of that.

 

It's one thing to know that intellectually, almost memorize it, but it's a whole other aspect to really know it internally for our bodies to feel what that feels like and to feel right and left and that is something that gets brought out in the Ronnie Gardiner method and people are amazed that that is as difficult as it is for them to actually be able to work with.

 

Jill Stowell: Right. I'm amazed at how difficult it is with me sometimes.

 

Carolyn Haney: Yeah. Yeah.

 

Jill Stowell: Carolyn, tell us about some of the different populations you've worked with and what RGM has done for them.

 

Carolyn Haney: So, I do have a wide variety of people. I've done some general groups. We have a university for seniors program and those are very large groups and so it's a very broad spectrum of people that I work with and those are primarily seniors and then I have a variety of senior classes.

 

I also have kid classes, but in those classes and within those, I do get to know the participants really well and they actually talk a lot about what's going on in their lives. We get very close with each other and so I have people with TBI and stroke survivors and Alzheimer's learning issues. I have a variety of anxiety, depression, Parkinson's.

 

It seems like there's new issues popping up all the time. I have people with attention issues and that are just trying to learn to focus, auditory processing. I have people that have laterality issues, trying to understand their right from their left and coordinating their right and their left body.

 

And so, they come to me in lots of different ways. Some of them are just coming because they want to have fun or they're trying to preventatively work on strengthening their brain and their body as they move forward. I do get a lot of balance, motor coordination. All of those are primary. And the wonderful thing about the method is that it's modifiable. And so, for instance, I have a woman who had had a stroke during surgery. And so, she had been paralyzed with her one leg down. And when she first started, she didn't have a lot of control over that. And then it was more of the visualization and thinking about I'm moving that part of my body.

 

And then it got to almost a spastic control, like spasms in it. And now we're at a point where she actually is in control of that leg and that doesn't mean it always does exactly what she wants. But she's using it and she's coordinating it. And she's doing cross lateral movements with it, and able to fully participate in the class.

 

I think one of the most amazing stories that I have had is a man with a TBI. And he has given me permission. His name is Bob. But Bob had a bike accident 10 years ago. And in that accident, he had a severe TBI, which led to severe vertigo, nausea, dizziness on a daily basis. He went through a variety of different therapies and work in order to try to bring things back.

 

It really affected his memory as well. And it just wasn't making the difference that he wanted in that he still – when I first met him, when he would walk, he would not necessarily walk a straight line to the point where I would get concerned, because he was having a hard time with his balance and working that way and after six weeks, he contacted me. And he said, “For the first time, I woke up this morning, I'm not nauseous, I'm walking a straight line. And I'm not dizzy.” It has made that difference. And he has continued in classes. We now just completed. He has been with me about a year. And it seems every week, there's something new. He always has a different story about what he's able to do.

 

He has got on top on a ladder. And he was looking above his head, doing repair work on the ceiling, screwing things into the ceiling and he didn't fall off the ladder, he didn't get dizzy. It's things like that. And his niece was just here visiting and she was shocked. And she said, “I just can't believe the changes,” and she wanted to know what he'd been doing. And what she noticed is that he wasn't falling down all the time. And she came to a class, and there happened to be a light that was blinking in the ceiling.

 

And she looked at him and she said, “Is that okay? Do you need us to turn that off?” And he said, “It doesn't bother me at all.” Whereas he said that would have been a huge issue and he would have needed to either leave the room, close his eyes, or turn off the light. He's able to go out in a boat, and he doesn't get sick. And that was happening all the time. So, it's his story. It's beautiful and it's wonderful. And I love – he's very open about talking about these changes and what's happening.

 

But I see that across so many different populations, talking about the improvements in their memory. A woman who was confusing her right and her left, it was in a bell choir, it wasn't working for her. And they weren't really probably enjoying or having part of the choir, because kept doing the wrong notes, as well as she wasn't on beat. She could not keep a beat.

 

Well, she left the choir. And after being in class for a while, she went back and wanted to rejoin. And sounds like they were a little skeptical. They gave her a very difficult piece to play and she played it perfectly. And she has never seen it before. She knew her right and left. She was right on beat and she is back in that group, doing all the bell choir activities.

 

And it's one of those things where I can't say that, yeah, everything's always perfect, and it's always working the way it is. But the changes and how it has affected people's lives, just amazed me constantly.

 

Jill Stowell: It is amazing. Thinking about the brain, things happen, or maybe we have had some kind of traumatic brain injury or something happened, or maybe a learning disability or an attention deficit or something that's getting in the way of our quality of life. And the thing is, the brain is amazing. And it really can – we know this now, it's backed up with the research, that the brain can change. It can create new neural pathways. It can strengthen the pathways that are there with targeted training.

 

And so, it's – I mean, that is a journey you and I have been on for decades, really, with our learning centers. But it has been such fun to have a tool like RGM to bring to all these different populations that are really stimulating the brain, so that life can improve. When you talk about the lady who was unable to move one of her limbs, or I think you said the brain, if you're thinking it, and you're visualizing it, the brain is still sending those signals. It's still starting to pattern that in there, even before you can actually do it. So pretty, pretty amazing. Our brain is amazing and the tool is amazing.

 

Carolyn Haney: It is. Well, and I think when you talk about the quality of life, I can't tell you how many people have told me I saved their life and tears streaming and just in amazement, people that in a lot of ways just felt that this is it. That was what the neurologist told Bob.

 

He said, this is it. This is as good as it's going to get. And you're going to have to just live with it and I think we feel stuck in that. I think of 13 years ago, when I started our clinic and working with you. It was very different 13 years ago, even in our understanding in neuroplasticity and the brain and the possibility. And we know so much more about that, but there's still so much yet to learn.

 

And so, it is frustrating for people when they feel their quality of life just isn't there. I hear a lot about depression. I work now with a lot of groups with older seniors, and there's a lot of depression. And they say this is the best hour of my day or this is my favorite part of the day. And they need it now, they need it. And they crave the group, they crave the music, they crave Ronnie Gardiner method, and just what it gives their body and their brain.

 

Jill Stowell: And their heart with the community.

 

Carolyn Haney: Yeah. They were at a point where they didn't believe that was possible. A woman who was very depressed, and wasn't leaving her home. And now she comes and she said, “This is what I need. And I didn't know I needed it.” It’s that extra draw, I guess, that energy that we get from each other and from the program.

 

Jill Stowell: Right. So, Ronnie says, “Rhythm is life and life is rhythm.” And of course, he's a drummer, he's all about rhythm. But actually, that is really true and I know you have delved into that. Can you talk a little bit about how rhythm and music help improve physical and mental control?

 

Carolyn Haney: There more and more research out there about it. I think many people understand the idea of music and the healing powers. We know, you watch a scary movie, they make the music scary, and you don't even have to see what happened. YOU'RE scared already.

 

Jill Stowell: Right.

 

Carolyn Haney: The same thing can happen when you think about sadness, or happiness or energy. We all usually have go-tos of when we want to energize ourself. If you want to do an exercise workout, you pull out certain songs that you know are going to energize you. So, I think the understanding of music just in itself, inherently, is magical and people often will say that in class, how much they just love the music, the music is so much a part of it.

 

And that's why we use the music that people enjoy. But what I think people don't always understand is what it is about that music that is so important and that is the rhythm and the timing, the rhythm, the timing, the cadence of it.

 

And there's lots of different ways that we listen to music. I've looked at research talking about active versus passive listening to music. And Ronnie Gardiner, as well as you go to a live performance, it's that aspect, you're actually absorbing the emotional aspect, and you're kind of feeding. We're human social animals and so that is important.

 

And so, I think that is a big piece of it. But the rhythm is organization, rhythm, timing. It's that internal organization of our system. And I tell people all the time, I say it's an organizing factor. It's like it takes everything in your body, everything in your brain, and it puts it into file folders. And it helps you make sense of it and it helps you put it into a comprehensive order. So that not only is it easier to access, but it's easier to know where to put things away. And then it's easier to find later on. But I think it's that emotional regulation is a big piece of it. It gives us something to attach to. All you have to think about is the ABC song.

 

We all learn the ABCs and how did we all learn it? I don't know that there's anybody that went through elementary school in the US that doesn't know the ABC song.

 

Jill Stowell: Right.

 

Carolyn Haney: We all know it and it's because it creates a string that literally pulls that information out of your brain and it helps create that continuity and that structure for it to actually evolve. And so, it's important for that memory piece of it. We do a lot in our clinic and I know you do too, just using metronomes and alternating the beats in the metronome. And that can help us regulate and calm our system as well as it can help rev, as I talked earlier.

 

But it's something that I don't think people have fully understood the impact that it can have across the board. It's motor planning. It's a tool we use for reading even, being on beats and having that rhythm.

 

And it's a tool. I work a lot with Parkinson syndrome and Parkinson's disease, but it's even used when you're working with someone trying to coordinate a movement and stimulate a movement. They found it's easier with Parkinson's if you use a metronome or you use a beat and you use rhythm. It's easier for them to have an even consistent step and to walk forward than if they try to stimulate on their own.

 

And it's that same idea of the ABCs where it pulls out of you. And it's that dopamine release as well as it is that rhythm and reward of that and what it can create because then we create a pattern.

 

Jill Stowell: Right, right. I mean, timing is inherent in everything. And when we are kind of in sync, whether it's with ourselves, walking or with a group or with the time of day, whatever it is, everything is going to work better.

 

When I think about our kids that we work with who have attention challenges, the timing, the rhythm can help them to slow down. It can push them to speed up. It can help regulate impulsiveness or help with initiation. That might be part of the issue with Parkinson's. If you put so much thought into it, it's really hard to go. But if you have this beat pushing you a little bit, it helps to initiate to get going.

 

The brain is just absolutely fascinating and rhythm and music just activate so many areas of the brain. It's pretty phenomenal.

 

Carolyn Haney: I had an interesting quote this week in one of my classes by one of my participants who has Parkinson's and it was a particularly difficult choreo score that we were working on. And afterwards, we had done it and we were discussing it and people were saying, “Oh my goodness, I had to think so hard to make that happen. And it took so much thought,” and he looked at them and he said, “That is Parkinson's.” He said, “That is what it is like for me in and out of every day, that intentional manual piece of movements.”

 

Everything in our body is rhythmic. You think about swallowing, blinking, breathing, eating. If we do any of those things out of rhythm, it can lead to consequences, severe consequences. And it can make life more difficult. And he just said, “That's what my life is.” He said, “I always have to think and kind of make my body do those things.” And so the music and that rhythm and working towards that automaticity, but it's that cue in, that stimulus of the music that he doesn't have to think quite so hard, but I think it was a relief for him to be able to explain to a group of people that don't have Parkinson's, this is what my life is like and this is what's happening to my body and my brain and why this is so important for that bilateral movement and just dual tasking everything.

 

And I think it's important for that empathetic piece as well and that's all part of the group. He has been in the group for about almost a year, but just that comfort and that trust, that he was able to share that.

 

Jill Stowell: And, and a way for others to actually get a glimpse of what it's like to experience a little bit of that themselves.

 

Carolyn Haney: Yeah. I don't know if you've ever read anything by Dr. Alan, Alan Ettinger. And he has different articles. He's a neurologist and he has different articles in the Brain and Life newsletter. But I bring him up because he discovered the power of music and rhythm and working with Alzheimer's and working with Parkinson, all these different pieces. And he has created a band. It's called the Synaptic Groove.

 

And they go around and that is their whole premise is that it's live music, but also, he teaches and talks about the rhythm in the brain and how that's impacting people. And so, it's just – it has been really fun to read just all the research that he has completed on it and how meaningful it is. So, I do feel like we're becoming more and more aware. I also feel like we have a long way to go.

 

Jill Stowell: Right, right. Yeah. When I am teaching RGM, often, it comes into my mind, the different things that people have to be thinking about, looking ahead or predicting the pattern or noticing the change. When I went to the RGM training originally, my real interest at first was, could this be a tool to build executive function? And I realized very quickly that RGM creates constant opportunities to practice executive function, because you have to tune in and focus your attention. If you drift, you have to notice it and regroup and get back in sync.

 

You notice patterns, you use your working memory, you have to notice what's coming next and be mentally flexible when patterns change. And all of those things are executive functions.

 

Carolyn Haney: Exactly. Yeah. And that flexibility is so important across so many populations, even people on the spectrum, being able to switch and move and finding kind of the pattern within and being able to apply that in different ways. Anticipating, looking ahead is a huge piece, setting goals and achieving, knowing what's coming. Yeah.

 

Jill Stowell: And being flexible with change.

 

Carolyn Haney: Yeah. And that is a really hard thing with a lot of people, even if people haven't necessarily discovered that that's a struggle they have. I think it's hard for us to change and we get very set in our patterns and our expectations of how things are going to go and I tried an activity today that was really quite funny in class.

 

We all laughed afterwards, but I don't know that we all in the middle of it felt like it was so, so funny. But what I did was I just threw a bunch of symbols randomly into a choreo score in random patterns, random ways. And then we played a song and we did it and they're all going, “Why was that so hard? Oh, why was that so hard?” And I tried looking for a pattern because we work on that.

 

And I'm like, “I couldn't find a pattern. I had a hard time finding the rhythm.” And so, we had a discussion about that planning piece of it. And it's by planning ahead, you're looking for consequences. And if I do this, what's going to happen? And so, we put things into play so that they're going to work well. Well, I purposely created a misfire on that and I made it random.

 

And so, it threw all of our brains and our bodies in a loop and it was a great discussion and it was a really interesting aspect and I do that periodically. This was a little more intense than some of the other ones I've done, but it's interesting. We need that. And that is a powerful tool, I guess, skill to be able to anticipate.

 

Jill Stowell: Right. Oh, absolutely.

 

Carolyn Haney: Yeah.

 

Jill Stowell: So, with what you did today, I'm sure many people made mistakes. We both work extensively with cognitive and physical training at our centers. And we know that in order to make a change, we have to work at a challenging level. It's kind of like going to the gym. You're not going to build muscle if you don't challenge them. So, what do you tell your students or your classes about making mistakes? Because they absolutely will. We make mistakes when we're doing it, even if we're teaching it. So, what do you tell them about that?

 

Carolyn Haney: I do talk about the importance of mistakes in learning and that mistakes can be fun. And I think it's a big part of setting the scene. I make mistakes, laughing when I make mistakes, talking about the mistakes I made, but we laugh a lot. That's kind of the atmosphere that we set in the group. And so, after that particular activity, well, people were laughing throughout the whole thing. And some people were just, whoa, and they'd sit and then they try and do something new.

 

And so, we talk about strategies and rhythm is the most important aspect of it. And so maybe you're not going to get all the symbols correct and the movements correct, but maybe you're tapping your foot, maybe you're clapping your hands, but finding ways to engage or also giving yourself permission to take that break to just laugh. And that's what they said afterwards.

 

They said, “Oh yeah, I just started laughing and I couldn't stop.” And then it got even harder. And so, we're looking at each other, we're laughing, we're moving ahead and we're talking through it and talking through what tools and strategies did people use to be able to try and stick with the choreo score or what parts were more difficult than others and why? And how did that affect them? And so, it's part of the learning process and that's what we talk about and we talk about having fun with that.

 

And I had someone brand new today and she just said, “Wow,” she said, “I was all over the place and I was having a hard time with this or that.” But she said, “Wow, did I have fun.” And that's it. And I said, “You coming back?” “I'm coming back.” She said, “This was really fun.”

 

Jill Stowell: Yeah. Well, laughter truly is one of the best medicines for our physical and mental health. So that's a really nice outcome. And I always think about our students who are struggling with their learning or their attention and they get so frustrated with themselves when they make mistakes, not just RGM, but with reading or getting their homework in on time or whatever it is that they had intention to do. And then they didn't. And it's a great lesson to know that mistakes are how the brain actually gets the opportunity to learn. If you think about a baby learning to walk, how many times do they fall down? But every single time they fall down, which is like a mistake, the brain gets the opportunity to make a tiny little adjustment. And that is truly how we learn.

 

So, it's a little easier as adults to start to intellectually value mistakes, but it's a good thing to keep in mind for all of us.

 

Carolyn Haney: I think it is good for all of us. I think in a lot of ways adults have a harder time with mistakes. They get so accustomed to the things that they do well.

 

Jill Stowell: Right.

 

Carolyn Haney: And not always wanting – there's flexibility again, but not always ready to try something new because I'm going to make a lot of mistakes.

 

Jill Stowell: Right.

 

Carolyn Haney: I use a lot of challenge, rest, challenge, rest, where I don't do challenge after challenge after challenge. We'll have some songs or some choreo scores that are easier. And so, I think that's another way to incorporate and help people kind of get a break at the same time rather than always straight across the board. But I have group members that will ask to do older choreo scores that we haven't done in a long time, but that were really hard for them because we want to see how we've improved.

 

Jill Stowell: Yeah.

 

Carolyn Haney: And they're amazed. Yeah. So, I pull those in and I have those there, because I want them to see the growth too.

 

Jill Stowell: Right.

 

Carolyn Haney: That's something we don't always notice, especially on ourselves is we are making progress, we are growing all the time, changes happening. But sometimes we need to be shown it concretely, to really understand how it happened and that it happened.

 

Jill Stowell: So, Carolyn, in one of your last practitioner trainings, you had a teacher as one of the participants. And I was so excited to see her there and just think about the possibilities for her class with RGM. You worked in public schools. What do you think RGM or some kind of consistent rhythm and movement program would do for our schools?

 

Carolyn Haney: Oh, I think it would be life-changing. I do. We've talked about the regulation, that emotional regulation, that internal regulation and timing. And I just think how magical it could be to have them come in the morning. And not only are you energizing their brains, getting them ready to learn, having their bodies work cross laterally, but getting that internal rhythm moving. And so, they're ready to learn, getting their brain ready to learn. So, I think that's a piece of it. It's good for attention and when we talk about that, visualization is a huge comprehension activity, being able to look ahead and visual tracking. Well, that's reading. That's following along with the teacher. There's an auditory component.

 

Well, now I'm listening to the teacher and I'm able to focus in on what they're saying. And so, I think I can see it going on the entire day to be totally honest. But I think in the morning, I think coming in from lunch, getting them back in their places, getting them focused. And it doesn't even have to be a really long amount of time. It could be a five-minute choreo score. It could be 15 minutes. But the other aspect you mentioned is we're really into technology and it is isolating people.

 

Well, this is something that would get them working and synchronizing with each other because if I move my arms out this way, I guarantee I'm going to run into somebody else in the desk next to me unless I really pay attention to my own personal space and we work with each other to make that happen. And so, I think it would be invaluable.

 

Jill Stowell: I do too. I think there's more and more starting to come up with, is technology really benefiting kids in school, and of course, there are pros and cons. There are good things and there are also some things that I think we really need to take a look at. People need to move. Movement is the foundation of learning. And when I was talking to this teacher in your training, I was so excited. I said, “Oh my gosh, this would transform your entire class.” Kids would, as you said. They'd be ready to learn. But I think you would have many fewer behavior problems. You would have fewer attention challenges. You would just have a much more connected group and ready group.

 

RGM is an incredible tool, but any kind of consistent rhythm or movement would be – I would love to see that happen in our schools.

 

Carolyn Haney: I think it would be wonderful. I think there's such an emphasis. I mean, really, this would help someone learn faster and more efficiently. But I think we're so focused on, I just give you more. I want you to read. I want you to do your math. And the way I'm going to make you better at those things is I give you more. And I think you and I both are aware in our centers that there's those underlying skills and it's those brain connections.

 

It's that movement and all of those reflexes, integrating, all of those different pieces that if that isn't happening, or if those connections aren't in place, it's not going to work as efficiently and may not work at all. They're going to struggle and that was what attracted me to RGM is that it covers every single one of those and it can be done as a group.

 

In our centers, we're mostly working one-on-one when we're doing the individualized work and this is something you could do with your entire class and cover across the board. Everyone would benefit.

 

Jill Stowell: Yeah. I would love to see every elementary school starting their day with this, the whole school. Wouldn't that be incredible?

 

Carolyn Haney: I want to have that on camera.

 

Jill Stowell: Carolyn, I'm thinking people might want to know how to find RGM in their community, or maybe bring it to their community. RGM is relatively new in the US, but there are practitioners around the country. But also, there's training so that you can bring it to your community. So how can people learn about those things?

 

Carolyn Haney: I think probably the best place to start, it's hard to explain RGM to someone. That's why I'm glad that there will be that option for people to be able to see in a video, you're going to have that – what it looks like, what it looks like in place. But I think getting more information, going to rgm-usa.com. And we have a website there that has a lot of different information on it. It's still in process. It is new here, but it does have a lot of information about what you can do with it and how to get further training in it.

 

I am still in the process of scheduling more trainings around the US. I currently have one in Duluth on June 25th and 26th, and that's an introduction to the Ronnie Gardiner method. And there are three modules for the method, and you can use the method using module one, which is the introduction and continue to add on and get more complex and challenging programming as you go.

 

But on the website, trainings that come up are always posted there. There's one that I'm scheduling in Seattle that we don't have set dates yet. There's another one we're scheduling in Texas that we're still working on between Houston, Dallas, and that area.

 

Another one actually that'll come up in Mexico City, and another one on the East Coast. And so, trying to hit all the different coasts, we currently do have practitioners in Texas, California, North Carolina, Michigan, and Ohio, and Minnesota, obviously. Where? New York and New Jersey. Yeah. And so, we have practitioners in those areas. The hope is to keep expanding that and putting that there.

 

Right now, on the website, we don't have all the different people that have been trained, and so looking to find ways to have people that are leading classes, having them on the site as well and doing that. And those are those layers that we're adding in as we go. On the website, people can contact me directly and for more information, but you can find any upcoming trainings that are there and as they pop up.

 

But obviously they could just directly contact me through the website. Another way is it's on there, but [email protected]. And I'm trying to get those pieces out there to people. It is a two-day training regardless of whatever module you do. I guarantee it is incredibly rewarding and a lot of fun. And once you start doing it, you start to understand more of that and the different ways that you can use it.

 

Jill Stowell: Seriously, I think one of the reasons I wanted to share this on the podcast is just I think our world needs this kind of connection and regulation and joy and I know Ronnie was so happy to get this method into the United States, his home country. All of us now are kind of pioneers in that. It's just an amazing thing. I think it can change the world.

 

For our listeners who are local to the Inland Empire in Southern California, you can find both children and adult classes on our website at StowellCenter.com/RGM.

 

Carolyn Haney: And there are also classes listed on the DuluthCoreLearning.com. Yep. That would be another place if you want local in Duluth and we aren't a huge area. And then we have classes in Minneapolis and bigger areas.

 

Jill Stowell: Well, I am so grateful that Ronnie and his teaching partner Itte made the trip all the way out to California from Sweden to bring RGM to the US in 2023. I'm grateful that my friend Maria hounded me to go and I really can't wait to see the impact that it will have as it spreads around the country.

 

So, for any of you listening who have gotten excited about this and would love to see it in your community or in your school, again, Carolyn is the US trainer for practitioners and we'll put information about that in the show notes. Carolyn, thank you so much. It's always so much fun to talk with you and just learn from you and thank you for everything you shared.

 

Carolyn Haney: Well, thank you for having me, Jill. This has been great. I look forward to new practitioners.

 

Jill Stowell: Yeah. At Stowell Learning Centers, we help children and adults move beyond learning and attention challenges, including dyslexia, by strengthening the underlying skills that make learning easier. When those skills get stronger, everything changes, reading, writing, focus, confidence, even stress around school.

 

If you're listening and thinking, “This sounds like my child,” you can learn more, explore free resources, or connect with one of our learning specialists at StowellCenter.com. Be sure to follow us on social media. We're at Stowell Center on all platforms.

 

If this episode encouraged you, please share it with another parent or educator or relative who needs to know that real change is possible.